汉语口语记录

根据 新华社 ,中国语言学家正在整理庞大的汉语口语数据库,他们’打算将其用作现代汉语新词典和语法书的基础。好消息!使用实际的口语作为来源应该会制作出更加有用的字典。

I’m a little disappointed that all the spoken 普通话 Chinese samples come from Beijing, though. Yes, I know Beijing is the 标准, but wouldn’真正的语言学家想要获得更大的样本吗?一种 描述性的 全国样本?

但是,也许他们在这件事上别无选择。他们可能不得不为中国政府的利益行事。我习惯于考虑外国留学生的利益,这很坏。’他们去中国时不一定要住在北京。

通过 语言记录,对此问题有更多的语言评论。

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约翰·帕斯登

约翰(John)是上海的语言学家和企业家, 全集学习.

评论

  1. As a native Chinese myself, I speak both 普通话 and Wu dialect. I think it is a good idea to start this 语言 database, but there are thousands of dialects, I wonder how big it would be.

  2. 约翰,唐’t you think that the 标准ization of Chinese is 在 the best 在 terest of foreign students 在 all parts of China? (Not to mention the best 在 terest of Chinese folk.) I know that I am happy that the younger folk of China usually speak a more 标准ized putonghua (than many elders) that I can understand. Sure makes things easier for me.

    I like these posts you make 关于 语言 stuff, even if the message boards are relatively silent.

  3. 即使我也希望调查覆盖更大的范围,但我了解到,面对如此众多的方言,任何研究都必须半任意设定一些采样限制。该限制可以通过理论确定(例如,’s the 标准) as where as 通过 practicality (e.g., cost of sampling). Limiting the data source to one or a few big cities makes the data collection affordable and more easily controllable (adding each city means an additional set of linguistic factors to consider). It would be a good thing (for someone else) to 在 itiate an effort to collect a spoken dialect database for each of many other dialects, too.

  4. E¨®in 说: 2005年1月7日,上午7:41

    我在约翰的一位前学生的博客中读到了有趣的一点’s a while ago. She was wondering if there were different dialects of English. She was concerned at the thought of going somewhere 在 the English speaking word and not being able to communicate 在 the local idiom. The truth is she would only have a problem with 口音.

    There are different dialects of English but the 标准 语言 is powerful and all English speakers understand it.

    我的问题是,什么是标准美式英语?约翰,你用它“about”?它基于美国任何特定地区的言论吗?

  5. 能够使用尽可能多的汉语方言,而又能访问不同的汉语方言将是一件好事‘accents’普通话例如,当我的四川叔叔说出他们所说的话‘Mandarin’ it’s all ‘si’ 在 stead of ‘shi’ and they mix up ‘l’ and ‘n’. If we could get used to hearing different 口音 of 普通话, we wouldn’t get such a huge shock on discovering that 在 China not everyone sounds like Dashan. Chinese people believe that these 口音 just show that the person can’t speak ‘proper’ mandarin, but that’就像说美国人可以’t speak 正确 English because they don’像英国女王一样讲。

    我也认为,当中国的学校吸引来自世界各地的英语老师时,这很棒,因为我们的英语说得略有不同(尤其是那些英语水平较低的人)。

  6. 无关,但我只是查看您的中国网志列表,并看到以下评论:
    “中国禁止使用米色背景的博客。”

    我的第一个念头是“中国人对米色有什么看法?”直到意识到它是指您的表。 h!

  7. The thing is that not only is complete 标准ization of a 语言 an impossible dream, but that one person speaking a completely 标准 version of a 语言 is as well. Because 语言 varies so much between 在 dividuals, throughout an area, and over time, 标准s can only really exist 在 theory (and maybe on TV). The larger the population, the more difficult it is to adhere to a 标准. That’这就是为什么非标准中文在中国无处不在。如果我们尝试应用一个“standard English”全世界(包括口音)?

    So…

    阿拉里克(Alaric),我认为这将有助于使中国的学生了解实际情况,而不是让他们相信某些神话般的实体,而这实际上只是一个无法完全实现的理想,这会有所帮助。 (也就是说,我’m NOT saying that a national 标准 is bad; it’是社会的必要组成部分’现代化,当然可以改善沟通。)

    SAE(标准美式英语)中的E®是基于美国中西部的口音。但是,它也仅在理论上完全存在。

    凯莉,我同意你的看法,尽管我不会’t want anyone to be 教导 to speak screwed-up Sichuanese 普通话. hehe. Regional variations can be 教导 without going totally nonstandard like your Sichuanese example. For example, ͉˕ vs Õâ¶ù£¬ optional ¶ù»¯ (Ȭ vs »¨¶ù), etc.

    实际上,在教室里’除非课程已经处于相当高级的水平,否则真的不值得花时间进行这些区分。尽管如此,在我的中文一堂课中,老师还是让我们选择用繁体或简体字符书写,然后我们不得不坚持下去。按照这种模式,如果每个学生都必须选择一个地区,例如北京,台湾或西安,那将很酷。’或上海,然后了解该地区的一些特色’s 普通话 and try to use them 在 class.

  8. 要回答E?’s query, if I may be so bold, 在 reference to Standard American English; modern American Standard English is based on Mid-Western American English usage without any specific locality bias. This 标准 evolved not from the academic community, but from radio and television production beginning 在 the 1930’s。同样,它可能应该被理解为基于当时受过教育的白人男性的使用情况。

    Modern technology, I believe, will eventually level out many of the dialectical differences, if what is occurring 在 the United States and Japan is any 在 dication. So I would suspect basing the data base on a 标准 is probably not all that bad, except if one wants to have a real understanding of specific lanaguage usuage 在 any one area (at this time). The one concern I have is that Beijing usuage of Putonghua uses the retroflex ¶ù whereas South of that regional area does not (and I am not sure whether the retroflex will be 标准 在 all of China).

    I think kaili has a very apt observation, everywhere I go Putonghua can have some rather heavy 口音 that may make it difficult to understand, especially if the speaker is older or less educated.

    几年前,我在越南参加了一次会议。除了我自己和另一个白人(他是澳大利亚人)外,所有与会者都是越南人。我想他坐在我旁边,因为他认为说英语的人应该把它粘在一起。但是当他开始和我说话时,我一点也不了解他,他的口音对我来说是如此沉重。 (他实际上是个很好的家伙,我们彼此喜欢’在公司的陪伴下,我得以进行调整并了解了他的大部分谈话,但花了一段时间。

  9. 当我第一次阅读有关数据库和John的内容时,JFS完全符合我的想法’s 在 itial reaction of disappointment for the lack of diversity among the 语言 samples. The fact that Beijing uses retroflex ¶ù way more than throughout the rest of China may be a problem for the study. It would be way more useful (and more 正确?) if they took putonghua samples from Nanjing, Chongqing, and/or Shanghai as well.

    Actually, I think a lot more people speak the non-retroflex version of 普通话 than those that do, and I can’看不到很快就会改变(尽管我’我实际上并没有权威说这样的话)。

  10. 如果要使用此口语数据库来支持字典,则无需担心-er的发音,因为中文字典具有将此类单词视为短语的系统,因此词根在书面词典中保持完整。 Huir = Hua-er,华语保持不变。齐尔=钱尔,钱完好无损。

  11. 只是有些相关,但是在这里’s页上的SAE主题(以及不存在“accent-free” American English):

    http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/midwest/

    (通过LanguageHat.com)

  12. E¨®in 说: 2005年1月8日,上午8:59

    谢谢约翰的链接,我’m surprised that it’s based on the midwest. I originally assumed it would be Washington DC, like 标准 French is based on Paris and now I know 标准 Chinese is based on Beijing. On this one Americans are have bucked the trend.

  13. E¨®in 说: 2005年1月8日,上午9:01

    也许我应该说“Mandarin” there, not Chinese.

  14. I am not quite sure that I follow you, 约翰. A 语言 标准 is not a representation of what people actually use, but rather a 标准 as to 受过教育的人应该雇用什么. Just as 在 engineering and science, a 标准 usually consists of a range of values, and so it will be 在 a 语言 标准, what pronunciation, vocabulary, and grammar falls within some acceptable range will be counted as 标准, and that outside the range non-standard.

    Gin, you are quite right 关于 the dictionary forms, but I fear that 标准s are used for much more than dictionary items. Quite often they will be used as 在 structional forms also. As a foreign learner, I learned my 普通话 with the retroflex “er”,但生活在长江下游流域,我发现它更多的是麻烦而不是价值,而且它本身就是某种适应不使用的学习经验。

  15. 前往Eoin:

    好吧,请记住,就法国和英国而言,他们的首都对他们的国家具有巨大的影响力(字面上;巴黎和伦敦的面积都比其他法国或英国城市小数倍)。由于所有主要的媒体和超级经纪人都聚集在首都,’s natural that the 标准 is set 通过 the capital.

    在中国’s case, it’一个极权国家,“standard” that is spoken 通过 the news broadcasters and 教导 在 schools is whatever is mandated 通过 the central government, even if the accent sounds strange to most of the country. Note that the Nationalists did not emphasize the Beijing retroflex as much. If the Nationalists had held on to power, 标准 普通话 would be much closer to the 普通话 spoken 在 the Yangtze delta.

    这两种情况均不适用于美国。它’它的自由市场比中国多得多,而且没有哪个城市能以几乎相同的程度占领该市场(请注意,在德国, ’t have any one city that accounts for 1/6 of its population, the 标准 Hochdeutsch is certainly not the German spoken 在 Berlin; or even the dense Ruhr Valley). Midwestern speech came to be considered the 标准 在 part due to the early high-voltage radio stations 在 Chicago (back 在 the early part of this century, you could listen to WGN from the East Coast to the Rockies), but also 在 part to the large number of people who found Midwestern English the most natural. Remember that the Midwest is vast, and due to western migration, pretty much all of the area to the west of the Midwest were populated 通过 former Midwesterners. I had read that 在 the ’30’s,旧金山的口音与芝加哥的口音完全相同。

    Ironically, with the Northern Cities Vowel Shift going on right now, 在 20-30 years time, the English spoken here 在 Chicago will be quite distinct from what we consider 标准 American English, which is evidently the English spoken 通过 broadcasters 在 1930’s Chicago.

  16. 另一件事:

    They speak with various non-rhotic 口音 在 the cities of the Northeast. Considering that the vast majority of the country speaks rhotic English, New York, despite it’s size, wealth, and media 在 fluence, can not hope to set the 标准 在 the US–it’本地人听起来对全国其他地方来说太陌生了。至于华盛顿,请记住,在其大部分历史中,一个昏昏欲睡的政府城镇在国会接任后完全关闭了’s summer break . It has as much chance for setting the 语言 标准 在 the US (without resorting to fiat) as Canberra does 在 Australia.

  17. JFS,

    你在那里回应什么?

    您的描述“受过教育的人应该雇用什么”听起来像是在法国可能会采用的规定主义方法。

  18. 约翰, I am not attempting to re-invent the prescriptive vs. 描述性的 debates of American liquists of the 1960s and 1970s. Much of that debate appears to me to be rather silly, anyway. I am just going 通过 what the term 标准. Standards are 通过 definition prescriptive, it is what one attempts to emulate.

    There are a number of little stories that come to mind. For 在 stance, back a few years, the planet Uranus had its 15 minutes of fame and was on all the major US networks. The issue at that time was how to pronounce Uranus. I forget, but it was either CBS or NBC that set the 标准 for pronouncing Uranus. They set a 标准, they did not take a poll to determine how most Americans pronounced Uranus. I do not know, but I suspect they polled a number of academicans.

    Likewise, My mother was born on Whidbey Island, Washington State. Her mother was from Canada (Vancouver) and her father from Ohio. Her paternal grandfather emigrated to Washington State after the civil war, her paternal grandmother was Ohio German, did not speak a work of English. To cut to the short, her spoken 语言 was Ohioan, and they at that time used the retroflex. So Washington was actually pronounce Warshington. But that was not 标准 and that pronounciation has gone away as the education system uses 标准s, not descriptors for much education. Likewise, my father was from Arizona, from a long line of early settlers. I learned to pronounce Tempe as Tampe (with a short a for the first vowel). But again that is non 标准, and with the large 在 flux of new settlers and 标准s of pronounciation 在 eduation, it is now pronounced tempe (with a short e for the first vowel).

    Again, 在 Japan 在 the 1960s regional dialects were quite common and heard everywhere. My last trip to Fukuoka I did not hear a word of Hakata spoken 在 public, just the national 标准. I suspect the Chinese government is going to go 在 the same direction. Long ago when Qin Shi Huang Di consolidated the empire, among all the 标准iations conducted, was the 标准ization of the written 语言 (many of the kanji was written differently 在 each of the different states, and perhaps differently within a given state). 标准化并没有损害语言。 Technology was not developed enough to do the same with the spoken 语言 . But that is not the case now.

    在美国,我们避免使用描述性语法(这样做已成为现代自由主义正统思想的一部分)。在我看来,该政策的后果之一是大多数受过教育和受过教育的美国人对英语语法掌握得不是很好。我的妻子曾经在华盛顿大学为科学家,工程师和管理人员教授日语技术课程。当学生不了解比较语法的基础时,她发现很难解释比较语法点。

    Again, I would suspect that if the Chinese government is establishing a database of spoken 语言 , it is for use as a 标准, that is, a prescription for 在 dividuals to emulate; not as a ethnolinquistic description of how Beijingers spoke as the beginning of the 21st century. I grant that the prescription may derive from description, but I suspect it will be prescriptive 在 the end.

  19. 到JFS:

    “标准化并没有损害语言。”

    您可能会争辩说,但是当25%或更多的现有词汇被禁止使用时,’很难说你没有’失去了语言丰富性。

    至于追随日语的中国人,我不’t know how variable the Japanese 口音 are, but the Chinese dialects are as different from one another as the Romance 语言 s are from each.

  20. 于2005年1月9日上午11:43发布:

    我不太确定你写这书时指的是什么“已有25%或更多的现有词汇被禁止….”关于您关于中文可变性的评论,我知道这一事实。我所指的是,现代技术正在对语言组内,语言组之间的发音以及语言本身的使用产生重大影响。我认为受影响的语言是方言还是单独的语言并不是真正重要的因素。一个更重要的方面是语言库本身的规模。举例来说,在阿拉斯加,随着讲者转换为英语,许多印度和阿留特语已经使用并且正在消失。我个人认为,由于现代广播的影响,今天这种情况正在以相当快的速度发生。除了演讲者的商业需求外,他们还受到电视等节目的轰炸,因此英语已经比他们的母语更加便捷和实用。在中国这里,老一辈的说话者经常倾向于使用非标准的普通话,有时会受到他们的母语或语言的影响。但是我看到年轻一代经常使用非常标准的普通话。在某些地区,公共广播可以用当地的方言或语言进行;但在许多其他地区,只会使用普通话。我认为标准将成为普遍的规范,尤其是当方言的人口基础相对较小或分布在较大区域时。在广东,这可能不会发生,香港电视台有当地语言节目,也许当地的电视台也有,我不知道。但是即使到了那里,您也可能会看到当地的方言开始消失,并被普通话和普通话所取代。“standard” Guanddonghua.

    至于语言丰富性,我不确定我是否同意这种生态要求。我认为语言相当实用。除了日常的事物交易外,它还将提供丰富的思想和感觉等。但是,我不知道所有人是否会讲一种语言或多种语言,但丰富的思想或感觉会有所不同。使用的声音等

  21. Bit behind the times again, but back to my comment re learning to understand different 口音 of 普通话, I definitely agree not to be specifically 教导 the different 口音, but at least to be told 关于 them or briefly 在 troduced to a few.

    我们的远程学习磁带都是北京的口音,而我们大学的导师必须使用北京的口音。就我个人而言,我觉得像任何说英语的人都可以教英语一样,使用任何说中文的人来教学都是更现实的(尽管我通常不得不改用美国或英国的口音,以使自己对中国的陌生人或美国人有所了解! )。我认为这是因为中国人对“correct”普通话比我们的英语(尤其是新西兰人)要好。当北方人听到广东人说普通话时,他们说“他们的普通话不好” not “他们有广东话的口音”. I try to speak ‘standard’普通话但丢掉所有北京的东西(除了我’嘲笑他们ðŸ™,虽然在口语学习词汇方面很难,但是如果我在四川或北京捡到单词,’通常我会重读口音,直到我费心在字典中查找这个单词!

    关于美国英语起源的有趣的东西。显然,猕猴桃英语基于1800年代的各种低等英国方言。如使用‘eh’ (we spell ‘aye’,就像五月份的ay一样发音,缩短的元音(面包和酿制的,在那里以及它们的啤酒和熊,对我们来说是相同的),句子结尾的音调升高。

  22. 到JFS:

    顺便说一句,那是我以前的事情。

    无论如何,大约25%的秦始皇取缔并烧毁了秦掌权之前所有存在的书籍。由于楚国和其他战国都有自己的词汇,它们具有独特的字符,因此(书面)词汇中有25%(或更多)从中文中基本删除了。

    关于功利主义论点,我想我只是不同意这种观点。对我来说,语言与文化有着千丝万缕的联系,当某种语言/方言消失时,该文化的某些部分也就消失了。
    例如,您可能会争辩说食物也纯粹是功利主义,我们都可以吃汉堡包,薯条和沙拉,但是我认为,如果没人会以长江的风格烹饪,那将是一种损失。三角洲了。

    就我个人而言’d actually prefer China adopting English as a putonghua rather than (or along side) 普通话 (as India has). English, at least, is equally difficult for all Chinese to learn (thus doesn’t disadvantage Chinese from a certain part of the country more than Chinese from another part) and is foreign enough that I think it has less chance of killing off the local dialects than 普通话 does.

  23. 理查德:

    I underswtand your point, and I have no qualms 关于 it, I just do not think it will have that much difference on the human experience whether we have one uniform 语言 or a plethora of 语言 s. Concerning Qin Shihuangdi, he did not eliminate 25% of the vocabulary, he 标准ized the orthography. That does not eliminate vocabulary, just the way we record it. It is as if all the Americans converted to the way the British world spells or vice versa. It may remove the exoticness of writing, but it does not eliminate vocabulary.

    kaili: I quite agree with you, but with some limitation. When my wife studied English, her father had learned English 在 the Brit fashion, her local teachers spoke Standard American English, but with a heavy Japanese accent, and they had two foreign teachers, one from South Carolina with a heavy Southern accent and one from New England with a heavy New England accent. It wss too much for them. The students held of student boycott, and the poor Southern women was removed from her teaching chores. Too much variety 在 the beginning is not conducive to learning a foreign 语言 or so I suspect. My University had a variety of speakers, but their Putonghua was rather 标准. Which mainly means some would have the retroflex and others would not. Although we also were 教导 a some, but not most, of vocabulary 在 the Beijing dialect; and even though I live and work 在 the Wu area, I tend to use nar 在 stead of nali, etc.

  24. JFS,我想您就在那里!其实我是第一次在中国教英语‘translated’我对学生说的所有话,就是她用中文口音重复了我说的话。

    阅读您的评论后,我想到了实际上是何时在中国认识我的第一个美国南方人的。这是惊人的。我需要字幕。喜欢“Ø兄弟,你在哪里?”(我确实使用了字幕)。

  25. 到JFS:

    很难说。我们知道一堆字符已从使用中删除。一世 ’m不能确定被删除的所有字符在Qin字符集中的对应字符都具有相同的含义。我对语言的了解很少会反对它。

  26. 理查德:

    我明白您的意思,但是您可能要考虑文学语言和当地俗语之间的关系(可能没有重大关系)。我怀疑与秦语言有很大不同的语言是在粤,吴和楚地区使用的那些语言。但是即使在这里,我怀疑在所有地区使用的文学语言都是相似的,只是拼字法是一种变体。我可能是错的,但是我怀疑情况就是如此。

  27. 只想知道学习汉语最有效的方法是什么?好的帖子正在将您添加到我的收藏夹列表中!

    照顾自己

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